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    Honest Question: How many new gTLDs do we need?? | Log in/Create an Account | Top | 141 comments | Search Discussion
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    This is why the ALSC suggestion is bad
    by Mpawlo on Saturday November 10 2001, @11:57PM (#3600)
    User #2936 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    You pose an important question. Fellow ICANNwatchers remember my critisism of Mr Carl Bildt's ALSC report.

    This is what I wrote then, and it has a lot of merit in respect of the question you pose:

    The only regulation that I consider sound is a global regulation based on the participation of nations. The work of ICANN affects mostly those who still have not found their way out on the Internet. To make domain name ownership a condition for voting rights is therefore not appropriate. Current domain name holders should be most interested in decreasing the amount of new top-level domain names. New top-level domain names will lead to inflation in the legal and economic rights of the domain name holder.

    A new top-level domain name can lead to multiple registration of the same domain names and defamation and degeneration. A "good" domain name will be less worth if it's available under multiple top-level domain names.

    However, it will benefit society if the name space is widened, while it will lead to more competition and innovation.

    Hence, I find it more suitable to make as many nations as possible, offline or online, participate in ICANN or an organisation replacing ICANN. It can be achieved through the United Nations or a similar body."

    Re: Honest Question: How many new gTLDs do we nee
    by fnord (groy2kNO@SPAMyahoo.com) on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:31PM (#3598)
    User #2810 Info
    To try to answer your question Gregory, I think we have to go one way or the other. Either...

    1. Stop rolling out new TLDs to limit confusion, and you didn't even mention that there may well also be numerous mountrushmore.ccTLDs out there, which seems silly, but there are numerous open ccTLDs which could care less. Or...

    2. Go with hundreds of gTLDs that have some meaning, eg: .museum, a la the yellow pages.

    I opt for 2. I always have. Before NSI flattened com/net/org into uselessness, there was some meaning to each gTLD. If it is too late to go back, and I imagine most would agree that it is too late, then we should either limit the damage with 1. or try to make the best of a bad situation with 2. ICANN's adding of .biz and .info didn't help matters, adding further undifferentiated TLDs will make it worse. I suspect ICANN will use the continuing .info and .biz problems to go with 1. for some time. They will then go with some sort of 3. that makes a further mess of things but makes them and their friends a lot more money. This isn't about good design or end-user usefulness, it is about money, and as long as that obtains the DNS will be a mess. Might as well get used to it. -g

    Re: Honest Question: How many new gTLDs do we nee
    by dtobias (dan@tobias.name) on Saturday November 10 2001, @01:34PM (#3563)
    User #2967 Info | http://domains.dan.info/
    The TLDs all do have distinct purposes, though there is a lot of misuse that blurs these distinctions.

    MountRushmore.net: Should be used by a network infrastructure provider, perhaps one in the vicinity of the mountain.

    MountRushmore.com: A commercial site pertaining to Mount Rushmore.

    MountRushmore.info: An informational site about Mount Rushmore, perhaps commercial and perhaps noncommercial.

    MountRushmore.org: A noncommercial organization pertaining to Mount Rushmore.

    MountRushmore.web: Doesn't really exist, since that domain hasn't been added to the Internet's official roots to date, and may never be.

    MountRushmore.biz: Another commercial site pertaining to Mount Rushmore. In this case, there really is unnecessary duplication, as both .com and .biz are going after the same sorts of uses.

    MountRushmore.shop: Another domain that doesn't really exist.
    FYI: My MountRushmore.info site will be informati
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @04:21PM (#3586)
    User #2940 Info
    Just to clear up any misunderstanding....
    Re: What will MOUNT.RUSHMORE.INFO be ??
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @06:39PM (#3590)
    User #2940 Info
    MountRushmore.info will give visitors a virtual tour of this exciting place....

    There is nothing like seeing Mount Rushmore for the first time, it is "majestic" are the only words to describe it....

    One other little bit of info on this, not too far from Mount Rushmore is the Crazy Horse memorial. It is the largest "mountain carving" in the world....The sculptor was commissioned back in 1948 to create a memorial for the Native Americans....The work on this mountain continues today. It depicts Chief Crazy Horse, a decorated Native American warrior....

    Anyways, a lot of people go see Mount Rushmore and Crazy Horse since they are close in proximity...Went a little long, but you can tell, MountRushmore.info is in good hands...

    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @08:44AM (#3521)
    User #2940 Info
    What do restaraunt's , newspapers and religion have to do with TLDs?

    If I want the USA today paper, I go and buy one. IF I want to to McDonald's, I go no where to find one. IF I practice christianity, I can go to any church I like. If your counterpoint to mine is that diversity in TLDs is better than just having a few, well then you missed my point.

    My question I posed to everyone is: How many TLDs do we need?? My point is if you have too many you risk causing the "duplicative effect" (krajewski, 2001)......To borrow your theme if I am new to a town, and I like McDonald hamburgers...which place do I go to....As we no, not all have the same quality standards....Imagine 50 McDonald's on the same street...which one would you go to???

    My suggestion for you Mr Annonymous is to not hand me any more ammunition!

    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @08:57AM (#3524)
    User #2940 Info
    >>>>>Your extension of my analogy doesn't work. If there are 50 McDonalds on your street, each one has a name. I go to the one that I like, each and every time. <<<<<

    You misinterpreted my analogy....I said I was "new" in town...Of course you will go to the same McDonald store your familiar with....much like you would going to eBay to sell something....

    My point is to not get "mixed" up in analogies, but rather get to the heart of the matter. Is having 50 "MountRushmore" domains a probably. Do you think having that many is a problem...With "New" users who have never went to the "MountRushmore" sites...

    If you think we should have an unlimited amount, please state your case for the record and why...



    This should put things into perspective...(I since
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:18AM (#3528)
    User #2940 Info
    The internet is used for many things, above all I think it's best used to find information. Having said that, I want to be able to find that information in short order...

    If for example (hypothetical), I enter Chair Design in "Google" for example and get the following web addresses:

    ChairDesign.com
    ChairDesign.net
    ChairDesign.org
    ChairDesign.web
    ChairDesign.info
    ChairDesign.shop
    Chair-Design.com
    Chair-Design.net
    Chair-Design.org
    Chair-Design.web
    (you get the point)

    Which one do you go to??? This is not even mentioning the fact that if I tried to find information about Chair Design by the "type-in" method, how screwed up things could get....

    So you know what would happen....People would probably (eventually) find a site related to "Chair Design" and make it a favorite......those other TLDs will more than likely produce the famous "404 Error" page....in time....

    I wasn't going get into analogies, but I think this will highlight the problem for you.....If you were going to design a website....Would you have links on your page that gave you "one" word....No you have "Home", "News", "Events"....etc, etc....The reasons for doing this are obvious...Now think back to my analogy, "Home", "Home", "Home" (all pointing to different pages, with different content...

    Who is the one with the right answer???..Frankly I won't throw out "flaming" shots, but will let the reader decide...
    Great question!! Here is the answer:
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:36AM (#3532)
    User #2940 Info
    You bring up a good point!

    What is the purpose of the gTLD??

    Let me indulge. A TLD was designed to allow hierachial usage of the DNS system....

    To make it easier to "find" a website, instead of using DNS numbers, we use "words"....Those words have to be entered verbatim to reach the website, unless you get redirected to MSN, and are able to find what you need....but clearly the TLD was design to make finding websites easy....Will having 50 new TLDs do that??? Your guess is as good as mine....but I got a feeling, the "duplicative factor" (krajewski, 2001) will be inherently problematic...
    Clarification
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @10:03AM (#3541)
    User #2940 Info
    A Domain Name makes it EASIER to find a website...The TLD is the string after the dot....
    You make a good point!
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:45AM (#3535)
    User #2940 Info
    TLDs have been around....and will continue to be around....

    So what's your point???
    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:15AM (#3527)
    User #2940 Info
    The internet is used for many things, above all I think it's best used to find information. Having said that, I want to be able to find that information in short order...

    If for example (hypothetical), I enter Chair Design in "Google" for example and get the following web addresses:

    ChairDesign.com
    ChairDesign.net
    ChairDesign.org
    ChairDesign.web
    ChairDesign.info
    ChairDesign.shop
    Chair-Design.com
    Chair-Design.net
    Chair-Design.org
    Chair-Design.web
    (you get the point)

    Which one do you go to??? This is not even mentioning the fact that if I tried to find information about Chair Design by the "type-in" method, how screwed up things could get....

    So you know what would happen....People would probably (eventually) find a site related to "Chair Design" and make it a favorite......those other TLDs will more than likely produce the famous "404 Error" page....in time....

    I wasn't going get into analogies, but I think this will highlight the problem for you.....If you were going to design a website....Would you have links on your page that gave you "one" word....No you have "Home", "News", "Events"....etc, etc....The reasons for doing this are obvious...Now think back to my analogy, "Home", "Home", "Home" (all pointing to different pages, with different content...

    Who is the one with the right answer???..Frankly I won't throw out "flaming" shots, but will let the reader decide...
    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by dtobias (dan@tobias.name) on Saturday November 10 2001, @01:37PM (#3565)
    User #2967 Info | http://domains.dan.info/
    And maybe you'll also find lots of other sites pertaining to chair design that don't even have those words in their domain name, like

    www.somesite.com/topics/chair_design/

    etc. You'll have to decide which one to go to based on other factors than just their URL, such as the excerpts of the page shown in the search engine results. You may have to go to several pages before you find one you like. That's the way the Internet has always been. The presence or absence of new TLDs makes no difference to that.
    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by fnord (groy2kNO@SPAMyahoo.com) on Saturday November 10 2001, @08:53PM (#3596)
    User #2810 Info
    Actually Dan, some search engines assign some weight to a search term appearing in the SLD, so your example site above, if they registered chairdesign.biz, or better still, chair-design.biz, would appear higher in some search engine rankings. More TLDs may not change anything but some search ranking orders, but it helps to explain the demand for new TLDs. If you didn't get chair-design.com or other existing possibilities, you're at a disadvantage to a competitor who did.

    OTOH, with more and more sites pointing to nowhere or nowhere relevant to their name, and more and more search engines going to a pay for position model, this may become a moot point. -g

    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by dtobias (dan@tobias.name) on Sunday November 11 2001, @01:36PM (#3636)
    User #2967 Info | http://domains.dan.info/
    Or, at least, it's a common superstition that registering domains with lots of keywords will help your search engine position, but I don't know how true that actually is... or, for that matter, whether it might be just as good to set up third-level hostnames with the keywords you want, like chair.design.yoursite.com.
    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by fnord (groy2kNO@SPAMyahoo.com) on Sunday November 11 2001, @05:35PM (#3641)
    User #2810 Info
    I tested this fairly extensively a couple of years ago. Some major search engines did bump you up with no other change than going from eg: geocities.com/chair-design.html to chair-design.com. I had intended to also test it with 3LD's but never got around to it as the cost of an SLD with the keyword(s) was insignificant.

    I have no doubt that it was more than superstition, some engines did give weight to the keyword in the SLD of the URL, I believe there are still a few that assign it some weight, though that number is lessening all the time, as I say the current model is to charge for better placement, or in altavista's case, to charge you to get listed expeditiously instead of a few months later. I realize search engines have to do this to stay alive financially.

    OTOH, their relevance goes down in many cases, site money available does not necessarily equate with site usefulness, so users cease using those search engine. Altavista is again a case in point, their hits have dropped in inverse proportion to Google's gain. Those who think that money can fuel or guide the flow of electrons will continue to be baffled by why that model just doesn't work online. You could call it failure to grasp the concept. -g

    You have a Serious Problem....
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:30AM (#3531)
    User #2940 Info
    I highly doubt ICANN will listen to me. They have their constinuency members, the DNSO, etc...

    I am someone with a vested interest in the internet, so that does qualify me as someone who can articulate an opinion....Personally I think those who post "anonymously" should not get to even voice an opinion, but this is a free country!

    If you have a problem with that I suggest you take it up with the ICANN board during their next meeting...

    Btw: I am not speaking for dot web or it's supporters here....I am speaking on behalf of those individuals who share my view.....
    You are persistent aren't you??
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:54AM (#3536)
    User #2940 Info
    Whomever you are, you can be rest assured I know a thing or two about the DNS...

    My expertise however is NOT in DNS...rather internet commerce.....I make it a little habit of mind to find out how customers are coming to my websites...Not all my websites deal with commerce either. Some are purely informational....

    Now, having said that I think I am qualified on the limited scope of this discussion to discuss whether or not there are enough TLDs or not...

    You make a very dumb comment in that you say "commerce is going to pull out of ICANN" because of the lack of knowledge of it's users??? I suggest you go back and read this thread....

    My guess is you don't share my view, that is fine...It's amazing someone can feel so inferior as to bring up someone's credentials to try to win your point...



    Re: Are you Chris Ambler ?
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @10:01AM (#3540)
    User #2940 Info
    Mr. Ambler usually posts with his own name....as do I

    Re: Honest Queston: How many new gTLDs do we need
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @09:55AM (#3537)
    User #2940 Info
    The "G" is for global.....then obviously TLD is an acronym for Top Level Domain....As opposed to a fourth level domain such as: What.is.your.point?
    I always say it's the ignorant ones who resort to
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @10:58AM (#3544)
    User #2940 Info
    ..
    I can tell no one read my post.....
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Saturday November 10 2001, @04:26PM (#3587)
    User #2940 Info
    No wonder there is so much miscommunication out there in the world....

    No one is listening....Oh, well...
    Re: I can tell no one read my post.....
    by alan on Saturday November 10 2001, @08:53PM (#3595)
    User #2877 Info

    I read it. It made perfect sense to me. I run some mailing lists for a small non-profit organization. We have our own domain name, EXAMPLE.ORG (not our real name). I often see evidence that one of our subscribers has misaddressed an electronic mail message to EXAMPLE.COM...

    The problem is that to most ordinary people the ".FOO" at then end of a domain name is practically meaningless. My parents, for example, are utterly baffled by all this and once asked me to explain to them why it's WWW.APPLE.COM and not just APPLE? Wouldn't that be easier to remember? They wondered, why do we Computer Geeks always make things so unnecessarily complicated?

    So as we get more top-level domains, most people are just going to see them as something as meaningless as an area code - it's something you have to get right in order to complete the connection. (Is it 1-888-CAR-TALK or 1-800-CAR-TALK? The only difference between .BIZ, .COM, .WEB, .INFO, and .NET will be that you have to remember the right one. Many name owners already realize this and try to snap up their name in as many TLDs as they can in order to increase the chance that people will be able to find them when they forget the "correct" TLD.

    So yes, there is a sense in which more TLDs just increase user confusion and don't really benefit anyone.

    But as long as running a TLD appears to be tantamount to a license to print money, there will be pressure to create new ones. But not too many new ones, because that would decrease the river of cash flowing to the existing TLD operators! So we're probably locked in to the current painful process of slow TLD introduction for the foreseeable future.

    Hello.....This domain was not TM'd...it was reg'd
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @08:03AM (#3606)
    User #2940 Info
    AFTER THE SUNRISE....Here is the explanation Afilias gave as to why some domain have the "TM" field" completed...
    --------------------------------------------------
    On trademark information ....

    You may notice that some Start-Up names have trademark information which makes them appear similar to Sunrise names. It is important to note that Registrars had the option of submitting trademark field information during the Start-Up period. The Registry did not require this information to be submitted during Start-Up (unlike Sunrise registrations where these fields were mandatory).

    If authorized Registrars submitted information in these fields to Afilias for Start-Up names, they were accepted and processed "as submitted". The information in the WHOIS is exactly as submitted by the sponsoring Registrar.

    On dates ....
    You may find that Start-Up names have creation dates as early as September 12, the date that Afilias opened the registry for registrars to submit pre-registration requests. The "CREATED ON" date corresponds to the date that the registrar submitted their request to Afilias. Afilias processed all Start-Up applications only after the close of the Start-Up period.

    You obviously can't read...
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @08:55AM (#3608)
    User #2940 Info
    Their is NO trademark! period! The registrar submitted it to Afilias that way...for whatever reason....

    What I was trying to say is the domain was reg'd after the sunrise period so that should have clued you in...
    Still not able to read...I will post it again...
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @09:38AM (#3617)
    User #2940 Info
    I do not enter the TM date in the WHOIS data field the Registrar did....Try reading this again...which will explain things:

    from the Afilias website (10/03/01):
    --------------------------------------------------
    On trademark information ....

    You may notice that some Start-Up names have trademark information which makes them appear similar to Sunrise names. It is important to note that Registrars had the option of submitting trademark field information during the Start-Up period. The Registry did not require this information to be submitted during Start-Up (unlike Sunrise registrations where these fields were mandatory).

    If authorized Registrars submitted information in these fields to Afilias for Start-Up names, they were accepted and processed "as submitted". The information in the WHOIS is exactly as submitted by the sponsoring Registrar.

    On dates ....
    You may find that Start-Up names have creation dates as early as September 12, the date that Afilias opened the registry for registrars to submit pre-registration requests. The "CREATED ON" date corresponds to the date that the registrar submitted their request to Afilias. Afilias processed all Start-Up applications only after the close of the Start-Up period.

    MountRushmore is NOT trademarked.....you
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @09:44AM (#3618)
    User #2940 Info
    I do not enter the TM date in the WHOIS data field the Registrar did....Try reading this again...which will explain things:

    from the Afilias website (10/03/01):
    --------------------------------------------------
    On trademark information ....

    You may notice that some Start-Up names have trademark information which makes them appear similar to Sunrise names. It is important to note that Registrars had the option of submitting trademark field information during the Start-Up period. The Registry did not require this information to be submitted during Start-Up (unlike Sunrise registrations where these fields were mandatory).

    If authorized Registrars submitted information in these fields to Afilias for Start-Up names, they were accepted and processed "as submitted". The information in the WHOIS is exactly as submitted by the sponsoring Registrar.

    On dates ....
    You may find that Start-Up names have creation dates as early as September 12, the date that Afilias opened the registry for registrars to submit pre-registration requests. The "CREATED ON" date corresponds to the date that the registrar submitted their request to Afilias. Afilias processed all Start-Up applications only after the close of the Start-Up period.
    MountRushmore is NOT trademarked....
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @09:45AM (#3619)
    User #2940 Info
    I did not enter the TM date in the WHOIS data field the Registrar did....Try reading this again...which will explain things:

    from the Afilias website (10/03/01):
    --------------------------------------------------
    On trademark information ....

    You may notice that some Start-Up names have trademark information which makes them appear similar to Sunrise names. It is important to note that Registrars had the option of submitting trademark field information during the Start-Up period. The Registry did not require this information to be submitted during Start-Up (unlike Sunrise registrations where these fields were mandatory).

    If authorized Registrars submitted information in these fields to Afilias for Start-Up names, they were accepted and processed "as submitted". The information in the WHOIS is exactly as submitted by the sponsoring Registrar.

    On dates ....
    You may find that Start-Up names have creation dates as early as September 12, the date that Afilias opened the registry for registrars to submit pre-registration requests. The "CREATED ON" date corresponds to the date that the registrar submitted their request to Afilias. Afilias processed all Start-Up applications only after the close of the Start-Up period.
    Short answer: No
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Sunday November 11 2001, @09:35AM (#3616)
    User #2940 Info
    Do you even no what UDRP is???

    It's for when people have disputes....

    There is no dispute...

    I run a vacation website in the area where Mount Rushmore is located......which more than qualifies me to have the website address....
    My.Domain.new.net is no different thant myname.tri
    by Gregory_Krajewski on Monday November 12 2001, @07:54AM (#3663)
    User #2940 Info
    There is no relevance here...


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